NI-DAQ installation is intolerably slow - what is the MINIMUM that we need to bundle with our app?

[dtnpsi]

Is an 8.7 package available?

DT

[Paul_C.]

Hey again David,

We have two versions of the DAQmx 8.7.1 runtimes available for download.  The runtime 3 is available here and the runtime 5 is available here.

I hope this helps,
Paul C

[dtnpsi]

Finally got around to installing 8.7.1 "Runtime 3"...

It reduced the number of install steps from 60 to (drum-roll...)  52 !     (I'm underwhelmed) 

I'm afraid you still don't "get it": we need a way to install only the individual components that our particular .NET app needs in order to talk to a specific NI USB DAQ device, not an entire library of stuff for devices/interfaces that will never be used. 

Think SPECIFIC DEVICE DRIVER, not a generalized device support infrastructure.

This same question has been asked over and over for at least the past 3 years on these forums, so it's not clear why there's still no solution.  

DT

[Paul_C.]

Hello David,

I understand your frustration, but we currently don't have what you describe available.   I would recommend that you try the runtime 5.  It is much smaller as shown in my previous posts and might be a bit more what you're looking for.  It also might reduce the install a bit more.  I will definately submit this feedback to R&D on your behalf and hopefully we can provide something like this in the future.

Regards,
Paul C.


Message Edited by Paul C. on 05-19-2008 03:41 PM

[dtnpsi]

We do MAXX with our app, so I'm afraid Runtime 3 is the smallest we can use.

Although (also along the line of "too much stuff" getting installed), what our users really need is something like a "MAXX lite"... just something to "ping" the DAQ device and do a self-test.

They never use any other features of MAXX.

DT

[Wallace_F]

Hello DT,

I understand your frustration with having to include big files in your installer.  And, unfortunately NI doesn’t offer a “light” version of Measurement and Automation Explorer.  If the only reason you need MAX as a part of your DAQmx run-time is so that you can perform a device self test, I recommend forgoing the device self test and using the DAQmx  Reset Device function instead.  This provides for roughly the same, if not slightly more extensive, functionality as the Self Test in MAX.  Furthermore, you have access to this function in your text based programming language, thus eliminating the need for MAX, if you are willing to trade between the exact functionality of the Self Test, and a more trimmed down installer.

Best wishes,

Wallace Frazier

Applications Engineer

National Instruments

[RMatei]

I believe that I have a case that should be even simpler than the one David is describing. Basically, I am using a USB-6281 for a dynamic control application. Performance is decent on a mediocre desktop PC with Windows, but ultimately I would like to see it run on a Windows XP embedded system. Not that I haven't already tried; the standard embedded runs off of a 2 GB compact flash drive, where all XP system files are located (this is a VERY compact version of XP with minimal components and services). So, obviously, there isnt enough space for NI-DAQ on this drive. Then I figured hey, at least I may be able to install onto an external hard drive and only rely upon the basic driver to communicate from my programming environment of choice (both .NET and VC++). But even with all the extra nonsense that I choose to store on an external drive (everything actually), there still isn't enough room for the basic drivers on the compact flash (I guess system drivers must be located in the Windows folder), and the installation fails. This is probably because you NI guys/gals chose to encorporate every driver for every single piece of hardware that has ever been developed there in one package called DAQmx. I know certain other manufacturers have done this with things like video drivers, but it becomes a little rediculous when there are so many classes and versions of your hardware.

I have began to notice that NI likes to leave its marks wherever it goes. Personalized customer service, courtesy visits from sales engineers, courtesy training sessions, software solutions for every and any possible use of a DAQ device including a programming environment and operating system, and a tendency to push the software to dominate every aspect of every DAQ application and peripheral task. This is clearly why the drivers are so huge; it is intentional. An NI-interfaced PC is to use NI software exclusively. However, underneath it all, there is always a way to get around the NI software, and I appreciate that these methods exist. For example: when I first started using the USB-6281, I wanted to develop a raw digital control algorithm from sctratch in C# .NET. But every which way I turned told I saw "Measurement Studio for .NET," which is a software package almost equal in price to LabVIEW (which I do not trust for a real-time application, or at least in Microsoft's operating system). The truth was I didn't need Measurement Studio - but the name popped up everywhere because NI needs to make its mark and try to convince you that you do need it. After developing in .NET, I decided to try the algorithm in raw win32 console using VC++ to gain some speed. But how does one use NI-DAQmx with VC++? Well, as I educated myself, I learned it is done with ANSI C libraries which are packaged with the NI software. Help files? Examples? You claim they're on the CD - No, they are not. There is only a function reference guide which has not been updated for years. And how exactly does one even begin to think in DAQmx DLLS without prior DLL experience? Lets just say - thank God I'm sharp, and thank Google for searching through billions of web pages for me.

So, after all is said, I am still left with this annoying problem of not being able to load a basic driver for one piece of hardware, which would probably take less than a minute if NI agreed to package them individually. I reverted to a simple ANSI C library - why do I need so much overhead software for such a simple task? Because you want me to rely on your software for every problem and task. Well, I'm sorry, but in control applications where I'm seeking update rates of about 1 millisecond, I need to revert to the simplest machine with software in its simplest form. But I cannot do that if I am forced to work with gigabytes of overhead software.

If I wasn't taking the time to write this, it would mean I do not want to do business with NI again. But I think the hardware products are great. Just PLEASE realize that standard marketing, robust engineering, and top-notch customer service are almost all you need to push both your hardware and software products. There is no need to confuse your customers and force those with high levels of technical experience and education to work at the same "simple" level of a newcomer. Personally, I believe that if Microsoft hadn't done this, their market share for Windows would near 100%. There are many different types of users of your products, including those who will devote their engineering career to using NI products, and those who will be forced to integrate NI products into their highly-personalized environments. Please, take all of them seriously.

[Neil_S.]

RMatei,

Thank you for posting to the NI Forums.  I hope you will believe that we greatly value your feedback.  We take our customer's feedback very seriously.  It is what motivates us to continually improve our products.  If you have searched through our forums you will see several people have voiced similar concerns about the NI-DAQmx driver's size and complexity.  There are also customers that have voiced frustration over lack of documentation for text-based APIs.  We are very aware of this feedback and are looking for ways to improve in both areas.  Let me describe specifically what we have done and what we hope to do to serve both of these needs.

NI-DAQmx Driver Size

Before diving into what we have done and where we want to go a little background is in order. 

The main distribution of the NI-DAQmx "driver" is actually much more than a driver.  It can be better compared to a development environment such as Visual Studio, complete with documentation, development tools, and productivity applications.  The full distribution of NI-DAQmx contains support for several versions of LabVIEW (which requires VIs compiled for each, example programs, and documentation), support for .NET, ANSI C, and Visual Basic.  NI-DAQmx also ships with LabVIEW SignalExpress, a very user-friendly data logging and analysis program.  NI-DAQmx includes Measurement and Automation Explorer (MAX), a graphical utility for configuring and testing your National Instrument's devices.  It also comes with the DAQ Assistant, automatic code generation, and documentation for our hardware and ships with dlls for supporting LabVIEW real-time targets. Despite supporting 250+ devices most of the size of the full distribution is not device specific code but in these additional features.  If we removed support for most devices, except the one you are using the driver would be smaller, but not by the margin our customers would like.  Therefore, to consider any solution we needed to better understand how our driver was being used and what motivated concerns about its size.

From conversations with customer's I think I can categorize these concerns in two major areas:

   1. Size of deploying applications
   2. Size of the driver download

For the first concern, developers provide the feedback that the size of the development environment is not as important as getting the installed footprint smaller for the final distribution.  To meet this demand a year or two ago we started releasing Runtime installers along with our full installer.  These runtime installers still support the large array of hardware but remove features that are only important in the development environment.  We stripped out LabVIEW Signal Express, documentation, ADE support, and examples.  The smallest version (runtime 5) also removes MAX.  The latest version of Runtime 5 is available here: (NI-DAQmx 8.7.1 Runtime 5).  The installer is about 160 MB and it's installed footprint is about 200 MB.  This is still pretty large, but it is impressive considering this driver still supports all the hardware supported by the full distribution.

A few months ago we took further strides by releasing NI-DAQmx 8.7.1 Runtime for Windows XP Embedded (available here: http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/1111/lang/en).  Its installed footprint is slightly smaller than Runtime 5.

To reduce the size smaller than 200MB we will need to consider customizing installers for specific hardware.  This is a possibility, and is currently being discussed.  Feedback such as yours, continues to motivate this discussion.

To improve the download experience of our drivers, we recently started a beta program of the new National Instruments Downloader.  It is a very small download that downloads a specific driver and allows the user to pause the download and is resillient to flaky connections.  The downloader can be easily deleted after the download completes.  NI-DAQmx 8.7.1 is currently being distributed with this downloader (NI-DAQmx 8.7.1 - Windows 2000/Vista x64/Vista x86/XP).  Depending on the successful completion of the Beta the downloader will be offered for more and more of our driver downloads.

Text-Base Documentation

As you have probably already determined, National Instruments is the LabVIEW company.  We love LabVIEW and want to see it adopted everywhere.  It has a lot of advantages, but we also understand that many of our customers require the use of text-based languages and we have every intention of supporting them.  We include every bit of functionality in our Text-base API we include in the LabVIEW API.  We also ship more that 120 text-based examples with our driver.  These examples are included on the CD, but often customers have had trouble finding them.  In recent distributions of NI-DAQmx these examples are installed to C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\National Instruments\NI-DAQ\Examples.  I have been arguing for some time that this is very difficult for many customers to find, and with NI-DAQmx 8.8 we added a shortcut from the start menu to aid in finding these examples.

There are also many examples available online through our Developer Zone.  There are also multiple tutorials including this:

Using NI-DAQmx in Text Based Programming Environments
Programming NI-DAQ in Text-Based Languages
Programming NI-DAQ in Microsoft Visual Studio .NET
Programming NI-DAQ in Visual C++ .NET

We will continue to work to provide increasingly better text-based documentation.

I know my explanation may have been a bit long winded, but I hope it has been helpful.  Once again I want to thank you for your feedback.

Regards,

Neil S.
Multifunction DAQ
Product Support Engineer
NI-DAQmx Software R&D
National Instruments

Message Edited by Neil S. on 10-13-2008 12:46 PM

[Atacama]

Hello again,

This issue is extremely frustrating indeed and I think that NI could be more professional regarding this problem. Most of us have had to rewrite their code to work with DAQmX, and we are facing the long driver installation time. NI is talking about 5 versionsof runtimes. I am looking for version 4, but it is not 'downloadable'. So, where is it? Has soebody found it?

Apparently there is also a traditional NI-DAQ 7.5 version, that is Vista compatible. But somehow, it did not work for me, and there is no support.

What are we doing then?

If someone found a solution, please let me know. 

[Neil_S.]

Atacama,

Which version of runtime version 4 do you need?  We posted the top requested ones to the web, but we can create a runtime version 4 if you need it.  We are looking to streamline this process in the future making it easier for all runtimes to be released to the web at the same time as the main release.  Are you looking for NI-DAQmx 8.7.1 Runtime 4?  Would NI-DAQmx 8.8 Runtime 4 be suitable?

We appreciate the feedback, as I mentioned in my previous post we take our customer's feedback very seriously.  I do however, want to point out a few other important factors in this discussion.  The unfortunate reality with being a commercial enterprise, is that to exist you must make money.  We therefore must make difficult and extremely important decisions about what areas we invest in and which areas we don't.  We can't possibly remain profitable and meet every single one of our customers demands.  We make our very best effort to understand what will be most helpful to our customers, and which features or additions will help the largest majority of our customers but inevitably someone gets left out.  We have a critical mass of customers that are trying to deploy to smaller and smaller targets and it is motivating a serious discussion about what to do.  I think I have answered what we are doing pretty completely above.

As for Traditional NI-DAQ 7.5 Beta for Vista, we have made this available as a Beta only.  The Beta is explained here: Traditional NI-DAQ (Legacy) for Windows Vista OS . Support is handled through the MIO.DAQ.PSEs@NI.com.  Did you already contact us via this email address?

Regards,

Neil S.

Multifunction DAQ

R&D

National Instruments